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Post by Cesaria on May 4, 2009 21:38:16 GMT -5
This may end up being a bit long.
First let's establish that Carrion is probably not dead. At least, I hope he's not.
So obviously, Candy has both her soul and Boa's soul in her body. We know she has been able to recognize people she doesn't know and say magic words she also doesn't know thanks to Boa, which means that Boa could partly control her.
Boa obviously has a lot of contempt for Carrion. For one thing, he's scary-looking. He had her killed. He's messed up on the inside.
It seemed very un-Candylike every time she had the sudden compulsion to get away, run away, etc, like when Carrion reached his hand out to her and she pulled back. (This was in the Dead Man's House; after that Carrion grabbed Candy's hand and she saw into his soul).
Candy knows how sad and messed up he is, so I would imagine her feeling kind of bad for him and maybe understanding his hurt. But when she had the chance to make him feel better, she was all mean. Could Boa have been controlling her? Maybe it's Boa with all the harsh feelings, having her think things like "I hope I never see that face again," etc. and not Candy's feelings.
There seems to be something similar with Candy's father. Candy used to hate him, but when she saw what he really was, she just felt pity.
Carrion basically spelled out that he didn't want to be all evil and messed up, that he wanted her to save him; and she ran away anyway. It seems like Boa would want to do that but Candy wouldn't.
Obviously Boa and Finnegan love each other, so it makes sense that in some way they'd end up together (although Boa is dead). What I mean is that I know Carrion isn't going to get Boa. But, I feel like Barker won't just let Carrion die all alone and sad. He needs to be thrown a bone, and I think Candy is like Boa in certain ways and different in others.
Most of the second book was foreshadowing for the whole Boa-is-inside-Candy thing, so maybe Candy's not-so-constant revulsion was part of that foreshadowing (we would expect Boa to be revulsed).
We know Candy will mature throughout the books... So you never know.
Thoughts?
Edit: I also want to say that since Carrion had that fight with Motley, he will want to act against her, so he might end up as an ally of Candy and friends.
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Post by Abaratian on May 4, 2009 23:03:34 GMT -5
The part of me that wanted the Phantom to end up with Christine wants Candy to get with Carrion, but I just don't see it happening. Let's face it, Carrion's not a good guy. Even if his personality does a complete 360 in the later books, he's killed people. A lot of people. And has tortured even more. While that might not bother me, who swoons over Freddy Krueger when watching Nightmare on Elm Street (  ), it seems like something Candy would be completely unable to overlook. In fact, it would be out of character for her to overlook, because she's emotional and has a strong sense of right vs. wrong. Plus, since her first Abaratian experiences, he's been endangering her life and making things difficult for her. In real life, those are pretty big turn-offs. The second reason is a pretty shallow one, but in Clive Barker's previous books the bad guy always stays evil. They have qualities that make them sympathetic, but they are still ultimately evil and get what they deserve from the main characters. I've read plenty of his books and can't recall a single one where the bad guy wasn't just a bad guy. In fact, he seems to be a fan of making evil guys as evil as he can make them. I'm not saying that he couldn't possibly be trying something new, but it would be a strange thing for him to explore. If Carrion comes back, he's going to come back with a vengence. He'd kick Mater Motley out of the picture (unless she killed him again for good) and then he'd go right back after Candy. Let's not forget that he has a temper, and that she did disobey him and basically leave him to die. Don't get me wrong. I want this to happen (although I like Malingo/Candy better and, thanks to the heal/hurt game, am discovering new, weirder pairings I prefer). But I doubt it will. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2009 5:52:49 GMT -5
I have to say that I disagree with you on the way Clive Barker treats his bad guys. As a matter of fact, I just thought the opposite; that his way of making the bad guys human actually makes it plausible that Carrion might have a reasonably happy ending after all. It's still a tiny bit unlikely, as there are many things that speaks against it (you stated several yourself, things that are extreme turnoffs). It all depends on how Barker chooses to develop the character. It's not impossible for Carrion to redeem himself, I think, even in Candy's eyes. She strikes me as the kind of person who wouldn't condemn somebody who's actively trying to be a better person. And Carrion has proven before that he'd be willing to chance, in fact, he doesn't seem to revel in the Big Bad Evilness as much as his grandmother. Even if it's part of his nature, there seems to be another side to him that he wishes that he could develop, in fact he showed at an early age that he wanted love in his life. It's a driving force in his character, that desire. Where was I? Oh yeah, Barker. In the book Cabal he nurtures the monstrous characters, making sure the reader sees them as human, however cruel and horrific they are, and in that book the monsters find love as well. Of course, the book's tagline is "At Last The Night Has A Hero", so...  Anyway, one of the things that has made Barker one of my favorite authors is that he has sympathy for his monsters; he seem to love them just as much as the other characters and in his books it's far from certain that they'll be crucified in the end. I'd say that he's paved an interesting road for Carrion as a character, because he's given him redeemable qualities and made sure there are at least two characters that pose a bigger threat to the heroes (Motley and Pixel). And right now, if he's still alive, he's alone and weak, without servants and hopefully without the capability to hurt others. The only person who might help him at this point is Letheo, and here's hoping Carrion learns a bit about humility from the experience. Anyway, I believe in Carrion's redemption (or whatever it should be called), but I don't think that he'll end up with Candy. I'll be pleasantly surprised if he did, though. I'm just praying that Candy won't end up with Finnegan, that crazy dragon killer really makes my stomach turn. *sits down and tries to mind-control Barker into pairing Candy with Malingo, Carrion with a hitherto unknown character and squish Finnegan like a bug. Oh yeah, and bring an exorcist for Candy STAT!* |
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Post by Abaratian on May 5, 2009 6:46:55 GMT -5
Oh, I don't mean that he doesn't humanize villains. Because Clive Barker definitely does. He's the best at that! It's the reason his evil guys like Carrion are so endearing to me. What I meant was that in the past he's never redeemed a bad guy before the way it would take to get Candy and Carrion together. I second what you said though, to a T! I think Boa needs to go away, maybe she can be happy and obnoxious together with Finnegan. Then Candy can live happily ever after with Malingo and Carrion can be happy with someone else. I doubt this all would happen, but I can hope  |
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Post by Cesaria on May 5, 2009 14:29:18 GMT -5
The part of me that wanted the Phantom to end up with Christine wants Candy to get with Carrion, but I just don't see it happening. Let's face it, Carrion's not a good guy. Even if his personality does a complete 360 in the later books, he's killed people. A lot of people. And has tortured even more. While that might not bother me, who swoons over Freddy Krueger when watching Nightmare on Elm Street ( ), it seems like something Candy would be completely unable to overlook. In fact, it would be out of character for her to overlook, because she's emotional and has a strong sense of right vs. wrong. Plus, since her first Abaratian experiences, he's been endangering her life and making things difficult for her. In real life, those are pretty big turn-offs. The second reason is a pretty shallow one, but in Clive Barker's previous books the bad guy always stays evil. They have qualities that make them sympathetic, but they are still ultimately evil and get what they deserve from the main characters. I've read plenty of his books and can't recall a single one where the bad guy wasn't just a bad guy. In fact, he seems to be a fan of making evil guys as evil as he can make them. I'm not saying that he couldn't possibly be trying something new, but it would be a strange thing for him to explore. If Carrion comes back, he's going to come back with a vengence. He'd kick Mater Motley out of the picture (unless she killed him again for good) and then he'd go right back after Candy. Let's not forget that he has a temper, and that she did disobey him and basically leave him to die. Don't get me wrong. I want this to happen (although I like Malingo/Candy better and, thanks to the heal/hurt game, am discovering new, weirder pairings I prefer). But I doubt it will. I understand what you're saying. I don't think it's very likely either, but it does seem semi-plausible. And it would make me happy. I would be so mad if Carrion didn't get thrown any bones D: I guess he's a bad guy, but he seems like he's a product of his environment. It's a separate discussion, though; could Carrion really not be -as- evil anymore? ._. |
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Post by Cesaria on May 8, 2009 21:52:07 GMT -5
OH LAWD I was looking around here: www.clivebarker.info/yaabarat1ex.htmlThere's a quote from Norma Lipnik there: "You know what? I think that sometimes people should be given second chances. If you don't give people second chances, how are they ever going to change..." Foreshadowing for giving Carrion a chance? Or more wishful thinking? :3 |
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2009 3:40:32 GMT -5
YES for second chances! <3
Actually, I think the real bad guy will prove to be Pixler. There's a lot of talk about the balance between Night and Day, that both is needed and so on, but Pixler represent a third side, and sort of a plastic/mundane/Hereafter side which threatens the very foundation of Abarat. But the sides of Night and Day are too busy with each other to see it... yet. I don't think the real danger will be some monstrous creature rising from the bottom of the sea (which would be cool in a Chtulhu-kind of way!), but rather the more subtle corruption of Pixler.
Personally I hope that Night and Day will join forces and drive Pixler out in the end. And Carrion had got it right back then (although admittedly for selfish reasons, of course): marriage between Night and Day WOULD solve some petty fights between them. So, find another representative from Day, give Carrion some lovin' and kick Pixler out.
WHO'S WITH ME? *rallies* XDDDD
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Post by Abaratian on May 9, 2009 10:41:15 GMT -5
I TOOOTTTTAALLLYYY think Pixler is the bad guy. Ever since I picked up the first book, I just knew Barker was gonna throw a curve ball at us and pull Pixler into the picture. Part of it is because he has the qualities of so many other Barker victims - cunning, knowledge, plus his suave, charming personality... totally sends shivers up you're spine because he's supposed to be this attractive young man but he's got the soul of a devil and you can't trust him at all.
Two parts of me are completely torn on this issue. It would really just be too good to be true if Candy ended up with Carrion. The fangirly fanfiction writer is like "YESYESYESYESYES" because this is the type of pairing I go for. <3 But my brain is like, "No, it would be out-of-character, Barker would have to ruin Carrion's personality for it to be plausible... blah blah blah" I want Carrion to find love with someone who doesn't need him to have a complete personality makeover, but loves him for who he is!
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Post by Usagi on May 9, 2009 14:47:18 GMT -5
YES for second chances! <3 Actually, I think the real bad guy will prove to be Pixler. There's a lot of talk about the balance between Night and Day, that both is needed and so on, but Pixler represent a third side, and sort of a plastic/mundane/Hereafter side which threatens the very foundation of Abarat. But the sides of Night and Day are too busy with each other to see it... yet. I don't think the real danger will be some monstrous creature rising from the bottom of the sea (which would be cool in a Chtulhu-kind of way!), but rather the more subtle corruption of Pixler. Personally I hope that Night and Day will join forces and drive Pixler out in the end. And Carrion had got it right back then (although admittedly for selfish reasons, of course): marriage between Night and Day WOULD solve some petty fights between them. So, find another representative from Day, give Carrion some lovin' and kick Pixler out. WHO'S WITH ME? *rallies* XDDDD Even though I'm a fangirl and I totally want Candy to hook up with Chris, I really think it could work. I don't think Carrion is dead. Barker has been setting us up for Absolute Darkness since the first book. Also, Chris is pretty much the epidemy of Night. What if Candy is sort of like Boa's alter ego? She is more sympathetic to Carrion (she is a pretty understanding person in general) and I also agree that it could be Boa that keeps her running from him. I think Boa needs to move out and hook up with Finnegan, and when she does, Candy will grow up a lot more and really start to come into her own. Maybe she will see the reasoning behind the marriage (I wish I could find my copies so that I could reread them) and go with it. |
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Post by RedStockings on May 9, 2009 17:52:49 GMT -5
Although I love to ship Carrion/Candy, part of me doesn't really want it to happen. Most of the fun in the books came from wondering how far/fast Candy could run from him, and what Carrion would do once he'd caught her. Imagining what might happen is probably better than anything else, if Barker just keeps hinting stuff, then no one will be disappointed.
But at the same time I really want Candy to save Carrion, perhaps not in a 'love' sort of way, but maybe she can help him escape his nightmares and be as happy as a evil guy can be.
Pixlar is certainly one to watch. I reckon not even Mater Motley realises how dangerous he is, since he seems to be coming up from the outside. Yet I can't wait to see more of him!!
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2009 8:45:46 GMT -5
Augh, I want answers! The book just has to come out this summer..!
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Post by caitycat66 on May 16, 2009 9:21:45 GMT -5
YES for second chances! <3 Actually, I think the real bad guy will prove to be Pixler. There's a lot of talk about the balance between Night and Day, that both is needed and so on, but Pixler represent a third side, and sort of a plastic/mundane/Hereafter side which threatens the very foundation of Abarat. But the sides of Night and Day are too busy with each other to see it... yet. I don't think the real danger will be some monstrous creature rising from the bottom of the sea (which would be cool in a Chtulhu-kind of way!), but rather the more subtle corruption of Pixler. Personally I hope that Night and Day will join forces and drive Pixler out in the end. And Carrion had got it right back then (although admittedly for selfish reasons, of course): marriage between Night and Day WOULD solve some petty fights between them. So, find another representative from Day, give Carrion some lovin' and kick Pixler out. WHO'S WITH ME? *rallies* XDDDD Exactly. In his own weird way, Carrion was right. Perhaps he realized, on some level, that there were other things to worry about besides Day. And a combined force would be a lot stronger than two separate ones against... yeah, probably Pixler. And yes, I do think That Barker will find someone for Carrion; maybe not Candy, but someone. |
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Post by tarak1028 on Jun 10, 2009 8:45:35 GMT -5
I realize I'm jumping into the middle of a conversation here, but I've just got my two cents to share.
Obviously, Carrion is one of the most popular characters in the series, arguably the most popular. Assuming he does come back (which is what most fans are doing, myself included), I don't think he's in for any huge redemption or happy ending. He's not only evil and cruel, he's tragic. We caught a glimpse into his past, when he was young and in love and had dreams and ideals, but I don't think it was necessarily an indication of what his future could be. For me, the point of that was to show where his malice and overall despair came from. Now, those qualities are part of who he is as a person. He had hope when he was younger, but after everything that he's been through (which I'm sure we've only read a small, small fragment of), I don't think there's really any going back to it.
As for his second chance, I believe he got that when he realized Boa was alive in Candy. He killed her first, and believed she was gone forever. He tormented himself about it for years and years, but when he finally realized she had been within his grasp the whole time, how does he react? He destroys things, he puts her life and Candy's in danger again, and probably would've found a way to kill them had they not broken the window in Candy's house. All of his kind words and pet names to her, and all of the sad, sympathetic stories he told Candy in the Dead Man's House were tools for his cruelty. The story about the Carrion Night Mansion he told wasn't even entirely real, if we read into implication that the fire was Mater Motley's doing. Granted, Carrion probably doesn't know this, but still. It goes to show that what he says can't always be trusted.
I guess what I took a really long post to say is that tragedy and pain and sorrow is really all Carrion has ever known. Sure, he was in love, and wrote some heartbreakingly beautiful things to Boa, but look how that ended for him. He's not a character that was meant to go through all of this and then gradually change his ways because of a weird teenage girl who attempted to kill him. Clive Barker's villains are very human, as a few people have already said, but they don't tend to go through some huge redemption and snag themselves a happy ending. Some of them manage to go through defeat and death with dignity, but it's still defeat, and the more human the villain, the more tragic it is.
...this is all speculation, of course =)
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), it seems like something Candy would be completely unable to overlook. In fact, it would be out of character for her to overlook, because she's emotional and has a strong sense of right vs. wrong. Plus, since her first Abaratian experiences, he's been endangering her life and making things difficult for her. In real life, those are pretty big turn-offs. 
Anyway, one of the things that has made Barker one of my favorite authors is that he has sympathy for his monsters; he seem to love them just as much as the other characters and in his books it's far from certain that they'll be crucified in the end. I'd say that he's paved an interesting road for Carrion as a character, because he's given him redeemable qualities and made sure there are at least two characters that pose a bigger threat to the heroes (Motley and Pixel). And right now, if he's still alive, he's alone and weak, without servants and hopefully without the capability to hurt others. The only person who might help him at this point is Letheo, and here's hoping Carrion learns a bit about humility from the experience.
